Has Arwen given up immortality


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What is happening to Arwen?

Elrond predicts his daughter Arwen that - after the death of Aragorn - she will walk unhappily on the earth, "under dwindling trees until the earth has changed".

This is highly poetic and also philosophical, as it represents a state that is between life and death and that is described in various mythologies (Limbo, Fegeberg, etc.).

In the film it is one of my favorite scenes when Arwen stands mourning at the leafy tomb of Aragorn and sneaks through the dreary woods.

Nevertheless, the question remains for me: Why actually?
Why can't the mighty Elrond delegate a "bodyguard" for his daughter, who - after the death of her husband (or son, grandson) - will someday take her to the immortal lands by ship. What speaks against it?

My question now:
Who knows what to do? Are there any answers to that in the Silmarilion?
What is your opinion about this? : smile:

Lg Georg

Hello Georg,

the Silmarilion gives a little answer to this and there is also something on the subject in the novel "The Lord of the Rings".

Arwen is not a pure Elf, but half human - just like Elrond. She chose Aragorn and thus a life as a human being
and abandoned their immortality. In the film this is symbolized by her gift to Aragorn - her pendant, who is the evening star.
That's why Aragorn is initially slightly horrified in this scene because he knows what this gesture means.

Arwen's role in the film has been greatly expanded; only a few lines are devoted to it in the book. Towards the end, however, as the aftermath
is told, it becomes clear to the reader what Arwen actually did. And when Aragorn dies, she quite clearly regrets her move.

But since she is no longer an Elf, she no longer has access to Aman, the Immortal Lands. That's why Elrond doesn't have a bodyguard
left to catch up with Arwen.
Surely he could have posted a few people to protect her, but I suspect - that's just my opinion, though - that he did
not allowed. Arwen became a human of his own free will and he does not have the right to more or less "condemn" immortal elves to it.
to stay in a world that is no longer hers just to guard a person, even if it is his daughter.

Could I help you a little further?

Dear Cassandra,

Great! Didn't think I'd get such a dedicated answer in such a short time, thank you very much!
I was very proud that I could assign the 3 rings in the film, but I didn't know the meaning of Arwen's gift so far (in this respect, Arwen's saying "It was a gift. Keep it" also gets a deeper meaning. She gives it to him just like immortality ...).
Incidentally, I do not believe that she regrets her step to Aragorn's grave. She weeps for her husband and her fate. But he was already her great love (ok, he was already 86: smile: but at least a Dunedain).
Since she was denied access to the Immortal Lands, a bodyguard no longer makes sense.
In this respect the only question that remains is how long such a human Elven woman can still live and suffer.
And of course you can still speculate about her son ...

Anyway: Thank you for the first and best regards,
Georg Bombadil: hat:

Bombadil ...: eek: Well, as long as you don't jump around and sing all the time. :court:

I admit that Aragorn was her great love. But just in the book I already had the impression that she was taking her step
(i.e. becoming immortal) repented.
What I z. B. never understood: Why did she even have to make a decision?

The age of Aragorn was already quite high, since he was not a normal person, but of Númenórian descent
was. For example, he was over ninety when he and Frodo first met.
In general, the time intervals between the individual events in the film have been drastically shortened - in the book pass
sometimes decades.
In that sense, he lived a lot longer than ordinary people, which is why Arwen spends a lot of time with him
could. If not the few thousand years that Elves would normally take.

As for his son, his name was Eldarion Telcontar and, as far as I know, he was dying quite young and apparently
free will (but I haven't really understood why so far).

Bombadil ...: eek: Well, as long as you don't jump around and sing all the time. :court:

... the respect in these halls has lately decreased a bit (especially in front of a Valar!) ...: smile:

Thank you for the information about your son, he seems to have been a little melancholy (although there is absolutely nothing wrong with Minas Tirith, not nearly as drafty as Edoras ... and much better in shape than Osgiliath ...).

Well, why did she have to choose? Maybe otherwise she would not have been able to bear children (with a human), but it is pure speculation ...
Perhaps it was because of Elrond's ring that it lost its power with the destruction of Sauron's ring?

By the way: as much as I appreciate the sight of Arwen, I think it's a shame that Glorfindel (who brings Frodo to Rivendell and saves his life) was completely retouched in the film.

Greetings from Gimli-Georg (would that be better?)

Arwen is not a pure Elf, but half human - just like Elrond. She chose Aragorn and thus a life as a human being
and abandoned their immortality.

Arwen is not half an Elf, but at least three quarters. Her father Elrond "Halbelb" is the son of Earendil "the seafarer" (who was half human and half Elf, namely as the grandson of Beren and Lúthien) and a half-elf. Because of Eearendil's contribution to saving Eriador from Melkor, each member of his family (he, his wife and his two sons) was allowed to choose whether they wanted to continue their life as a human or as an Elf. Elrond, like his parents, chose the Elven fate, Elros, his brother the human fate. Elros became the first king of Númenor and was thus Aragorn's ancestor.
Unlike his parents, Elrond returned to Middle-earth and married Idril, the daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn. Idril was later murdered by orcs.

In any case, Arwen is descended from a half-elf, who is elf by his own choice, and from a high-elf. It is possible that Elrond's inheritance will also give her the opportunity to renounce her Elven fate and thus immortality and to be human. But I am not sure whether she dies in the book too, i.e. becomes completely human. But I have to read that again.

I find it interesting, by the way, that Tolkien in the Silmarillion does not portray human mortality as an evil, but as "Iluvatar's gift", which gives them the opportunity to end their existence instead of having to carry on with everyone like the Elves over and over stressful memories and emotional pain. I think that was also the reason why Aragorn and Arwen's son voluntarily ended his life: he had simply lived long enough and had become tired.

In the book LotR, Arwen does not give her immortality to Aragorn to save his life (the battle in which he is almost killed does not take place there), but "lends" it to Frodo so that his soul can be found in Valinor, the land of immortals recover from the efforts of his quest and the debilitating burden of the One Ring before he dies.

Dear hobby writer,

unbelievable how many experts there are in this forum!
Thank you for the exciting information!
I have the 10 Silmarillion CDs in the car,
But I only manage the first 3 CDs, after that
I have the name Overkill (although of course I enjoy the Gandalf voice!).
The fact that Arwen and Aragorn's son is tired of old age and saying goodbye to life is quite comforting and forgiving.
And that Arwen bestows her immortality on Frodo in order to purify his soul, is once again highly poetic and philosophical!

Again merci and best regards,: smile:
George

Elros became the first king of Númenor and was thus Aragorn's ancestor.

Exactly, therefore also of Númenórian descent. And it explains his high life expectancy (which he - to his chagrin -
also bequeathed to his son).

I find it interesting, by the way, that Tolkien in the Silmarillion does not portray human mortality as an evil, but as "Iluvatar's gift", which gives them the opportunity to end their existence instead of having to carry on with everyone like the Elves over and over stressful memories and emotional pain. I think that was also the reason why Aragorn and Arwen's son voluntarily ended his life: he had just lived long enough and got tired.

An interesting thought. Tolkien was very much into the Edda, the skaldic poems and the Nordic ones in general
Mythology deals. There immortality and the associated problems are discussed again and again.
Perhaps by the voluntary death of Eldarion he wanted to point out once more that eternal life has its price
has (if you do not develop yourself further, but stop at a certain level - but that leads too far ^^).


In the book LotR, Arwen does not give her immortality to Aragorn to save his life (the battle in which he is almost killed does not take place there), but "lends" it to Frodo so that his soul can be found in Valinor, the land of immortals recover from the efforts of his quest and the debilitating burden of the One Ring before he dies.

I meant "giving" in a figurative sense. For his sake she gives up her immortality and thus "gives" him
(symbolically in the form of the evening star) their elvenness.


... the respect in these halls has lately decreased a bit (especially in front of a Valar!) ...: smile:

I hope you really mean one of the fourteen Valar and not our boss here. ^^

And I like Gimli-Georg. ^^

I hope you really mean one of the fourteen Valar and not our boss here. ^^

And I like Gimli-Georg. ^^

Well, you don't really get to know who Tom Bombadil actually is in the book. But at least he pulls the mighty ring over his finger, he laughs, and he gives it back to Frodo.
Even the mighty Maiar Gandalf and Sauroman are or would have succumbed to this power. In this respect, Bombadil has to be more powerful and in this respect he can really only be a Valar (and that, dear Cassandra, should be treated with LITTLE respect). :cap:

Greetings from Gimli garden gnome

Well, Mr. Garden Gnome - it was never really clear who Tom Bombadil is. There are many theories.
Tolkien himself said, "There must always be some riddles, even in a mythical age. Tom Bombadil is one (on purpose)."

Therefore: Before I freeze here in awe, you'd better give me tough facts about your alleged Vala status. : elkgrin:

Dear Cassandra,

here are the tough facts:
In front of me is a previously unpublished work by Tolkien, which clearly states that ..... no, joke! : tongue:

I don't have any facts.
Nevertheless it says:

One Ring to rule them all,
to find them ALL
to drift into the dark
and bind forever.

I interpret it this way:
The ring has power over ALL creatures, be it elves, humans, dwarves, orcs, animals or other living beings.

The only exceptions are those who are ABOVE the Maiar and Ringschmieder Sauron. And as far as I know, these are only the Valar.
Maybe he's some kind of "superhobbit" on which the ring has no effect at all, but I would rule that out. : hobbit:
Daring thesis: Maybe Iluvatar will take a little break there with the lovely buttercup. After all, Wotan and Zeus were no food scoffers either and were always on the move ... just a theory ...

Greetings and have a nice weekend,
George

Hm, I would like the theory of the superhobbit. : elkgrin:

About the Ilúvatar: Admittedly, his lovely companion is called Goldberry and not Buttercup (that was the name of the host who wasn't quite like that
lovely), but that he could possibly be the Creator God himself - well, this theory has existed for a long time and also has its fans.
And if you look at how Bombadil is, well, that would explain a lot. : elkgrin:

Well, now confused ... * eye the verse forging Bombadil dwarf a little suspiciously * ... Well, to be on the safe side: https://www.gif-paradies.de/gifs/smilies/2d_gefuehle/gefuehle_smilie_0371.gif

... Ilúvatar and a dingy innkeeper ... interesting idea ...: waving:

Well, dear Cassandra, I accept the homage with humility and will soon send a pretty light elf to thank you! : smile:


Gimligeorgombombadilcreetly hiddenterilúvatar: hat:

Back to Arwen.
If she chose mortality, why didn't she just age with him and die with him?

And I think it's her own choice to shuffle around so self-pityingly. She could play with her descendants, she's sure to have great-grandchildren, and go around the country helping people. Maybe hunt down bad guys too, hopefully she can fight, otherwise she would really only be a relay.

Hello Angelika!

I also thought about it, hence the obvious thought of a trip to the "Immortal Lands".
However, to come back to Middle-earth: With the Elves you don't think in terms of generations, but sometimes millennia pass (Elrond, for example, still fought against Sauron). Contact with the "family" can become weaker, especially since people think and "tick" differently than elves.
In the end she walks under "disappearing trees", so it could even be an age after humans.
It remains a riddle and: it remains poetry ...

Lg Georg

I have the 10 Silmarillion CDs in the car,
But I only manage the first 3 CDs, after that
I have the name - Overkill


For this reason, I prefer the print version of the Silmarilion (and other books with huge amounts of facts) because it contains all possible overviews, family trees and graphics. I am not such a nerd as my daughter, who knew all the kings of Númenor by heart and also largely mastered the two most important elven and dwarf and orc languages ​​...: elkgrin:

Back to Arwen.
If she chose mortality, why didn't she just age with him and die with him?
I never understood it to mean that she died, but that she gave up the right to go to Valinor and therefore has to stay (alone) in Middle-earth. Tragic!
The relationship between Aragorn and Arwen repeats in parts that between Beren and Luthien (in which Tolkien is said to have incorporated many details of his own great love for his wife). And Luthien is said to be "the only Elf who ever really died". My memory on this point has faded a bit, but I believe SHE gave up her immortality to save Beren, who was badly injured when he cut one of the stolen Silmarili from Melkor's crown (on the orders of Arwen's father Thingol, as a price for the marriage license). They are said to have lived together in Middle-earth for some time and had their son Dior.

And I think it's her own choice to shuffle around so self-pityingly. She could play with her descendants, she's sure to have great-grandchildren, and go around the country helping people. Maybe hunt down bad guys too, hopefully she can fight, otherwise she would really only be a relay. Tolkien was too conservative for women's combat skills and actions. The film director modified or invented the warlike Elbe women Arwen and Tauriel. Tolkien wouldn't have wanted characters like that.

Hello hobby writer,

finally I have time to answer (sorry!).
Thank you for the comment, "print media" are great, but in the car I always find the audio version appealing (especially since I can then remember the names better). I think it's great that your daughter speaks all languages ​​and knows all names, my nephews only know all Pokemons and all Star Wars characters. Unfortunately I can't have a say ...

Although a bit out of date, I find the work from the 80s listed below well worth seeing. The filmmakers of Peter Jackson seem to have taken some pictures as a model (e.g. also the link between the Elves and Art Nouveau).

Many greetings (also to Cassandra)
from the giant hobbit Georg-Bombadil: hat:

https://www.amazon.de/J-R-Tolkiens-fantastische-Welt/dp/3811810065

Note to Arwen: Appendix E to the book clearly states that she died not long after Aragorn and was buried under the Cerin Amroth in Lothlorien.

True, you're right. But until then she wasn't exactly happy - and not only because Aragorn had died, but because she was beginning to question her decision.

Quote: Well, who was Tom Bomardil anyway ...
Tom Bomadil was the name given to him by the hobbits of Bockland.
He was called Iarwain Benadar by the Elves, which means "the oldest or fatherless.
The people of the north said Orald (ancient).
So there could be something to the assumption that he was a particularly "high being".
Goldberry is believed to have been a kind of nature spirit.

Hello Wilferedh,

nice note, thank you very much!
The fact that he plays with Frodo's ring without hesitation and laughing and that the ring has no effect on him (and he knows that too) definitely gives an idea of ​​something "higher". And the "fatherless" would actually speak for Ilúvatar, who takes a well-deserved break with a beautiful nature spirit in female form.
Many greetings from Georg

Hello Georg C. Peter. I came across some new information about Tom B. According to the author H. W. Pesch, the translation of Iarwain into "the oldest" in the LotR is said to be a mistake. "Old-young" should be correct (from iaur + gwain). Full name: Iarwain Ben-adar; the old boy without a father, so-called "because, as long as anyone could remember, he always looked the same, old but very strong". Well, that's how it works with the golden berry. : princess:

Hello Wilferedh,
Great! More and more information about Bombadil (whose art of rhyming is not quite so divine: smile:).
Well, the "Eternal", older than humans and older than elves. He could already be one of the primordial gods, only which one? Maybe you have to take another close look at his dialogues ...
Best wishes,
George

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